Everything Girl

Our Man of the Moment for December, Peter Yarrow, is quite possibly the greatest embodiment of the term “harmony” alive today. Most of us know of him as a third of the popular folk music trio “Peter Paul & Mary,” but Peter is more than just a singer and songwriter. He’s an activist, an artist, a parent, a friend, and a great advocate for the welfare of children around the world.

We’ve chosen to run our interview with Peter largely unedited, though we’ve split it in half for ease of reading.

Many of us grew up with your music because our parents listened to it. For those of us who aren’t 1st generation fans, will you tell us a bit about your own beginnings? Did you always want a career in music? How was Peter, Paul & Mary formed?

I grew up in New York City, attending PS6 and then the High School of Music & Art, one of two “Fame” schools, where I was an Art Major. I had studied the violin in my early youth before picking up the guitar, though until my senior year in college, I thought my life’s passion would be painting and design. At Cornell University, I started as a Physics Major, but ended up with a degree in Experimental Psychology. While there, I became President of the Folk Song Club and, as a senior, was offered an instructorship in English 355-356, Folk Ballads and Folk Songs (popularly called “Romp ‘n Stomp”) where I first came to understand how music sung together could create a strong, caring, community environment, erasing bias and intolerance for a while, and perhaps much longer.

After graduation, I want directly to Greenwich Village where I got a gig playing nightly at “The Café Wha?”, one of several coffee houses where performers “passed the hat” and lived a life of Bohemian wonderment, loving every second of it and sensing a world about to change dramatically, as it did shortly starting in the 1960’s. After about a year of traveling the coffee house and folk club circuit, my manager, Albert Grossman, suggested that we look for two other singers to create a group with a strong woman singer and a comedian who could also sing well. The group was Albert’s concept, but the picking of the singers was our joint task, and that story is very long and involved and I can’t tell the whole tale right now.

“I guess, just the way a couple in love lives deeply in the moment, or a parent just becomes consumed by a new-born child, Noel, Mary and I were too busy to think about fame and recognition.”

Eventually, Noel Paul Stookey and Mary Travers and I wound up singing “Mary Had A Little Lamb” in Noel’s fourth floor walkup in what was then the grubby East Village. The three of us marveled at the immediately beautiful and arresting sound of our voices together and we decided to work together on the spot. (Albert Grossman was very famous for his taste and for his powerful advocacy for his acts, and he later managed Bob Dylan, Gordon Lightfoot, Richie Havens, The Band, Janis Joplin, and many more remarkable performers).

After 7 months of constant rehearsal, Mary, Noel Paul and I made our first paid appearance, a 6 weeks gig at “The Bitter End”. Three days after we opened you couldn’t get a ticket on a walk-in. Following that success, events moved at a very rapid pace. Less than a year later we had the # 1 Album in the United States, “Peter, Paul & Mary”, and the life of passionate performing, day in and day out, as well as the birth of our political advocacies for justice and freedom began what was to be almost a 50 year, amazing ride.

Mary’s passing in September of 2009, which seems just yesterday yet years away, ended the trio’s career together, but the music lives on with “Puff, The Magic Dragon”, “Leaving On A Jet Plane”, “Blowin’ In The Wind”, “If I Had A Hammer” and many other songs, TV shows for PBS and memories of marching together for equal rights, peace, the environment, women’s rights and more. I could not be more grateful for our wonderful history, together, and I miss Mary deeply, as you might expect. I think of her every time I sing a song

Did you know, at the time, that you would all become, not just monumentally famous, but cultural icons?

For the trio, being together was never a matter of looking into the future and assessing how famous or how successful, or even how respected, we might become. We simply lived the day-to-day rapidity of a highly energetic schedule, loved ever concert and continued to be amazed at the incredible response we got from those attending our concerts. After each concert, we’d greet the audience that stayed to say hello or sign autographs, but would also talk way into the night about the world that was turning and changing so dramatically around us.

In our earliest years, the issue under discussion was the Civil Rights Movement during which so many young people left college in the summers to register African-Americans in the South who had been prevented from voting because of what were called “Jim Crow Laws” that made it difficult, if not impossible, for our fellow Americans to vote. In the years that followed, starting around 1967, the issue began to focus more around the Anti-Vietnam War movement that was gaining momentum. I was extremely involved, as were Noel Paul and Mary, but in my case, there was a passion that eclipsed most other pursuits. After each concert I would talk to many young men who were torn about what to do in regard to the war and the draft. Some were considering going to jail rather than entering the war, some were contemplating going to Canada for sanctuary, some applied for “Conscientious Objector” status based on their religion or family history of Pacifism. Others went to war, some died, many came back broken in body and spirit, and others did go to jail. It was a time of great passion, pain, protest, love and hope. It was exhausting but extraordinary in many, many ways.

I guess, just the way a couple in love lives deeply in the moment, or a parent just becomes consumed by a new-born child, Noel, Mary and I were too busy to think about fame and recognition. Life was too exciting, too challenging and too important, each second, to stop and assess where we might be in 20, 30 or 40 years. We just lived it, and I must say I totally loved it. (They loved it too, I think, but in different ways and not as obsessively as I did, I suspect.)

Do you have a favorite memory involving Peter, Paul & Mary?

My favorite memory of singing with the trio was when or performance at the March On Washington where we sang Bob Dylan’s “Blowing in the Wind” and Pete Seeger and Lee Hays’ (of the Weavers) “If I Had A Hammer”. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. delivered his “I Have A Dream” speech and the air, itself, seemed to change around us, as we began to realize that this event would alter all of our lives forever. Never before or since have I sensed such a powerful determination and unified commitment amongst a crowd, in this case a quarter of a million people who had gathered together to pledge themselves to eliminate racism and second class citizenship for Americans of color, no matter how hard it might be, or what it took to become successful. In the years that followed, many activists were beaten, jailed and even murdered by racists like those in the Klu Klux Klan who killed Goodman, Chaney and Schwerner in Mississippi, three college students who entered the struggle to bring fairness and justice to America. They lost their lives, and Peter, Paul & Mary sang at Andrew Goodman’s gravesite at the laying of his gravestone where we sang, “Blowing in the Wind.”

When we were listening to Martin Luther King deliver his famous address, Mary took my hand and said, “Peter, we’re listening to history being made”. She was right, because we never stopped working toward the goal of equitable and equal treatment of African Americans in our country. Later, we went on the “Selma to Montgomery March” and made many other appearances for the Civil Rights Movement that soon melded into appearances for peace, equality for women, the environment, Antiapartheid and the like. In a way, our being together as a trio was as much about singing for the things we believed in as it was making concert appearances, records and CDs.

“I looked at the problems of our country as something to be overcome by grass roots organizing, such as what was done in the Civil Rights Movement and the Peace Movement and so I became an organizer of singers and musicians for these causes.”

I’m so very, very, proud that Mary lived to see the victory of Barack Obama. That was the end of the first “arc” of the struggle, of which I was a part, for fairness for blacks in our country. Now we’re on a new journey in that struggle, especially regarding the unfairness and injustice of the way young black males are targeted, sent to jail, and deprived early in life of acceptance in society, dignity, hope, and the many kinds of opportunities that are available to almost all of their white brothers.

We’ve still got a long way to go, but we’ve moved so far towards becoming a nation that embraces diversity, people of all races, ethnic backgrounds, and religions. Our accomplishments in the arena of Civil Rights were a manifestation of the best that America can be, the real genius of our country. I doubt that any other country in the world could have changed that comprehensively in so short a period of time in an area of entrenched injustice, bias and racism. In this regard, I’m very proud of my country, and proud to be an American.

While the three of you often publically supported a single cause, as individuals you sometimes supported different ones. Is the apparent respect each of you had for the others’ “pet issues” real, or just wishful thinking on the part of your audience? How did divergent social or political issues affect the dynamics of the group?

All of us in the trio pretty much agreed on the major issues of the time though our perspectives on these issues were frequently different. I looked at the problems of our country as something to be overcome by grass roots organizing, such as the efforts of the Civil Rights Movement and the Peace Movement, and so I became an organizer of singers and musicians for these causes. Noel Paul came at his advocacy in a much more personal manner. For him, advocacy was more a matter of enlightening the spirit and heart of each person, one by one, and making sure that each person lived the dream, personally, that they wanted to create for the world. Noel Paul’s songs reflected his perspective and mine reflected my own way of addressing the challenges of the world. I believed that music, if properly utilized as an organizing tool, could lead to inspiration and enlightenment as well as the political and spiritual growth of society However, in addition to a change of attitude, I wanted to achieve concrete results that could be measured in changed laws and new policies, like the ending of school segregation or the ending of the Vietnam War. In the end, both Noel Paul and I became more and more like each other in perspective, though in the early years we embraced very different methodologies to reach the same ends.

Mary, on the other hand, seemed to bridge our two perspectives. She was perhaps the greatest “ground breaker” of the three of us simply because she was a powerful, beautiful, woman who refused to “play a part”, take on a false persona, act like someone she wasn’t. She was a great role model, especially for younger women, because she was personally free in the deepest sense and she never bowed in foolish deference to men just to get their attention or use “feminine wiles” to get them to do something she wanted them to do. She was, in life and in her music, defiantly truthful, never manipulative, and you always knew where you stood with her, especially if you were in the middle of a disagreement about something.

The members of our trio always respected the other’s different points of view. When there was an issue, we talked through everything to make sure that we had arrived at a consensus. That was hard, but I think that was perhaps the most important reason we were able to stay together for almost 50 years and not break apart. During the last 5 years of our career and friendship together, none of the disagreements or differences in our points of view mattered even a little bit. All was love and gratitude for the wonderful good fortune of having had each other as friends, working partners, and extended family for so many remarkable years.

You’ve been involved in the Kerrville (TX) Folk Festival since its inception in 1972. Please tell us a bit about the festival in general, and your involvement with it? Do you still attend, and if so, do you attend solely as a performer, or do you participate in the workshops as well?

I was one of the founders of the Kerrville Folk Festival in 1972 that became, perhaps, the most meaningful platform for new writers of songs in the United States. In fact, in the last two decades of our career, most of Peter, Paul & Mary’s new songs came from the “New Folks” writers as they are called. New Folks enter a competition each year in which their songs are judged by a panel of notable songwriters, not for their commercial potential, but for their song-craft, their ability to move a listener and for the strength of their content.

Kerrville Folk Festival is like a second home to me now and I always attend to sing there on, or near, my birthday, I come to say hello to, and hug, my many friends and listen to the songs, newly written, from the stage of the New Folks competition and at the campfires that are spread all over the Quiet Valley Ranch where the festival is held. I am proud that this remarkable event has never become costly to attend. Most folks camp out, as does my son, Christopher who, when he reached college age, produced the Staff Concert for ten years. Most of the staffers (and there are hundreds of them each year) are musicians themselves and their concert is always a highlight of the festival. Last year, Christopher backed me up on the washtub bass, which he plays wonderfully and with a rhythmic empathy that is clearly a matter of our sharing the same gene pool. (He’s always “right there” which is the greatest feeling of support from another musician, when I sing.)

My daughter, Bethany, now an accomplished singer in her own right, has sung with me many times at Kerrville. When she was 7 and 8 she mounted the stage and sang fearlessly with her adoring eyes following my lead, and her face paint (that all the kids get) unselfconsciously announcing the unusual dichotomy between a song like “500 Miles”, so sad and emotional, and the colorful joy of her cheeks striped in red, blue and purple (her favorite color). Now, of course, when she sings at Kerrville, she is a full-fledged artist on her own, performing with Rufus Cappadocia, her musical partner and virtuoso cellist — who plays the cello more like Jimmy Hendricks played the guitar.

“For the first decade, I always spoke to them in preparation for their performances which I hosted, counseling them that this was not really a “competition”, but the birth of what might be, in their lives, a new family of supportive, talented singers and musicians…”

Being at Kerrville is stepping into a world of friendship, hope and beauty of song, coupled with the wry sense of humor that comes from the Texas songwriters that have made their delightfully irreverent stamp on the tone of everything that transpires at the festival. To be newly at Kerrville is to be a Kerrvirgin; to be a long-time attendee is to be a Kervert, and know that on the weekdays, if you’re out of food, your best bet is to buy lunch at the Kerrstore.

Noel Paul and his daughter, Elizabeth, created a festival within a festival there called “Music To Life” that presents the songwriting winners of new songs that seek to help and heal the world. This adjunct festival takes place every two years, and adds to the amazingly rich treasure chest of songs I hear at Kerrville that move me, and rejuvenate me, each year.

Best of all, I’ve counseled many a new aspiring song writer to go to Kerrville and listen, play at the campfires and take the measure of their own passion and talent. Invariably, they become hard-core Kerrverts whose lives as artists take new flight as they realize that they are far from alone in their efforts to bring some beauty and truth to the world. They realize that, as the sign says where you leave Kerrville Folk Festival “IT CAN ALWAYS BE THIS WAY”. They have a star to guide them till they come back the next year to be refreshed and re-inspired, as am I, each year at Kerrville. The festival runs from the last week in May through the first two weeks in June.

Do you feel as if you’re a sort of mentor to any of the younger artists who’ve come from those workshops? Are there any we should be watching for/listening to?

Because I was the originator of the New Folks Competition, which was patterned after a similar concert that I organized at the Newport Folk Festival in the mid 1960s, I think of all of the New Folks singers as my “children” in a way. For the first decade, I always spoke to them in preparation for their performances which I hosted, counseling them that this was not really a “competition”, but the birth of what might be, in their lives, a new family of supportive, talented singers and musicians; a network of wonderful friends who could be there for them personally, musically and professionally – to help them, encourage them and validate them in their ongoing life as artists and purveyors of heart and spirit, tellers of tales, and troubadours of a vision for a more just and peaceful world. Inevitably, the New Folks participants become a close-knit family, and the whole idea of “winning” is replaced by a spirit of mutual support and the awareness that, in the most important of ways, they are all very much “winners” in the deepest sense.

If you come to Kerrville, most of the New Folks songs you will hear will have some value to you, I suspect, and you will be listening to the future singers of wonderful, caring, moving and sometimes madly humorous music. Singers such as David Wilcox, Buddy Mondlock, Tish Hinahosa, Lyle Lovett and many others were KFF (Kerrville Folk Festival) New Folk contestants and “winners”, and all benefited greatly from the gift of Kerrville.

I recommend KFF to everyone and anyone who reads this. It can, and might well, change your life in the most wonderful ways.

In addition to your music, we know you as a passionate social activist. Which came first, music or activism, or are they completely intertwined?
Folk songs, as Mary Travers always said, tell you, “If you’re going to sing me, you have to live me, too.” Singing these songs takes on a life of its own after a while because when you sing folk songs, some of which have been part of history for hundreds of years, you feel their history within yourself. You feel the joy, the dreams, the pain, of those who have gone before you, those who created those songs, not for money or for fame, but because they had to write of their own lives, their own passions and tell their own stories. Feeling that connection to history and the souls of those who have put their hearts on the line in music before you makes you less “about yourself” and more about “us” all. You feel less alone, less confused by the big issues of life, than you might otherwise have been, and you feel that you, yourself, are in some mysterious ways connected to the world as a whole, and to the ages. You know for sure that the world did not start with you, nor will it end with you, and you know that, not only is this ok, this is cause for celebration and gratitude.

Because of this, it is my belief, that for those who sing as song-leaders, or as part of a group that shares a folk song (with or without a leader), singing folk music makes you a better person. You become a more respectful, more sensitive to the troubles and challenges of others, as well as more aware of your place in the historical sweep of history that could engulf you in a sense of powerlessness, if you let it. But with folk music, and a sense of community that it creates, that sense of powerlessness is far less likely to take hold of you.

“The Arts encourage the social and emotional growth of young people, and gives them the tools to form a strong bond among their peers. The Arts encourage youth to accept one another, to admire (not fear and despise) diversity.”

I know that my mother, Vera Yarrow, a high school teacher in English, Speech and Drama, was fervently idealistic, and that she imbued in me a most progressive viewpoint on society and politics. However, much as I attribute my early inclinations to the perspective and inspiration of my mother (my father was not there, as there was a “bitter” divorce when I was five years old), it was folk music that gave me a tool to express myself and advocate for her, and what became my, political and social justice perspective.

Through singing folk songs, I was able to combine my music with growing commitment to activism, to sing in the ways I had seen Pete Seeger and the Weavers, Woody Guthrie and others, try to inspire people to work to make the world a better place. In my efforts to help heal the world, (In the Jewish tradition such efforts are called pursuing Tikkun Olam.) Sometimes it was a matter of singing for, or hoping to reach, one person at a time, but with Peter, Paul and Mary, on quite a few occasions we found ourselves singing in front of ten, or even hundreds of thousands of people, and on one occasion in the Philippines two million people.

Do you feel that the youth, teens and young adults of today are lacking a fundamental connection with social justice? Conversely, do you think older generations have given up their causes, and handed off the responsibility?

I worry about the youth of today because, what they don’t have that I did have when I was growing up, are the sources of information and inspiration that gave me a great sense of empowerment and belief that I, working alone, but in concert with, and connected to, many, many other people’s intentions, could make a real difference. I, and so many others like me, believed that, together, we could forge a different path for our country and the world — one that was more humane, fair and peaceful. Such information and inspiration allowed me to not only have faith that my efforts were not in vain, but to have a balanced perspective on my life, accepting the setbacks and defeats when they came, but also rejoicing in the tiny steps that were made with frequency, getting us closer to achieving our long range goals.

Alas, many of these sources of inspiration, like the music that we sang at the time, are not available to the children and youth of today. They don’t have the kind of rich cultural experiences in schools, or in their homes for that matter, that we had and that were so important to the growth of our awareness and our emotional and social development. Rarely, these days, do I find that teen-agers are willing to sing. They are embarrassed to sing, to show their emotions, to show their vulnerabilities. The Arts encourage the social and emotional growth of young people, and gives them the tools to form a strong bond among their peers. The Arts encourage youth to accept one another, to admire (not fear and despise) diversity. The Arts allow us to use our hearts, not our logical systems, to address issues of the heart.

The absence of a focus in schools on the humane growth of children and youth, the arenas of their social and emotional development, the destructive effect of reality TV shows that are “shame-based” in which adults who are acting out teach children and youth the frightening skills of humiliation and ridicule, the horrible reality of violence, the fact of the epidemic of childhood depression, and suicide among our youth, the acceptance of bullying as an acceptable way for people to interact in business, in government and in the social hierarchies of our society, all these things and more make it harder and harder for children to grow up healthy and whole.

The unintended, and very destructive aspects of the No Child Left Behind Act (NCLB) that sets the standards for education in America and evaluates the performance of schools, very unfortunately, resulted in the “narrowing” the classroom curricula by eliminating much of the Arts, eliminating many classes that lay the groundwork for, and encourage, creative thinking, as opposed the limiting focus on rote learning of the basics whereby teachers were now “teaching to the test”, the high-stakes examinations that evaluated students’ and schools’ performance.

Gone were the classes that developed 21st Century problem solving skills including thinking creatively, in favor of an intense focus on the of Math, Science and English, all of which are important, but only part of the puzzle of preparing children for life and cannot, themselves, tend to all the growth needs of children and youth. NCLB, though it did give us a measurement to know how students were doing in the “basics”, it inadvertently helped to instill a climate of fear of failure in schools, among teachers and children, and contributed to the national crises in psychological, emotional and social health among our children and youth. Thank goodness, this very faulted perspective is currently being considered for revision by Arne Duncan, US Secretary of Education, and the Department of Education that he leads in the Obama Administration.

If, and this is a big if, schools become centers of communities where children are taught, first and foremost, to be good human beings, caring and involved future citizens of their countries and the world, and able to think for themselves… And, if, and this is another big if, schools allow and nurture the development of the creative side of children… And If, and it goes without saying this is a huge if, the superficial values of our adult world that measure the worth of someone in terms of their objects they have bought, their accumulated wealth, their fame (more frequently than not, these days, fame in the sense that Paris Hilton acquired fame, based on style — not content or good works — and often accompanied by outrageous acting out… And if music and the Arts are once again cultivated, shared, respected, and practiced as a daily part of efforts to eliminate bias, racism, pettiness, selfishness, hatred of “the other,” greed and inhumanity…. Then, slowly and gradually, I think we will start to see a return to normalcy and caring as the basic tenets and traditions of our current society.

Incidentally, not only are our children and youth endangered, psychologically, and wounded of heart and spirit, but democracy itself is also endangered by the current educational philosophy and perspective that does not educate children and youth to be good, ethical, active, human beings and participatory citizens. Education today fails terribly in its duty to educate students to become willing and dedicated participants in their society who care about the general welfare, societal fairness, justice, social and financial equity, and who also care about the environment that we leave for the next generation, rather than focus on greedily grabbing the biggest material piece of what’s left – all this being especially unfortunate given the scarcity for so many, that surrounds us.

“If we can reconstruct the way in which we educate our children, the way they are either taught to continue the cycle of division and war that plagues the world or, conversely, to go beyond past hatreds and habits of retribution, find our inspiration and leadership among those who have not yet been taught to hate, to fear and renew the pain of the past. In the next generation we can find bridges to heal the mistakes we’ve made.”

Democracy is founded on the idea that each of us becomes knowledgeable enough to independently come to a decision about the best course for our people, our laws, and our nation to take. Democracy depends upon our voting on our independently arrived at, carefully weighed, opinions and convictions. Democracy needs for people to be informed and honest, open and willing to learn and listen, debate with civility and respect, and not be swayed by appeals to their least caring selves, appeals to their fear of others, fear of change or progress. Democracy needs us to be immune to appeals to our capacity for selfishness, and rather be available to appeals to hopefulness, appeals to our ideals and to a call for us to find common ground among our disparate perspectives, and ultimately pull together in the interests of our country and the world. Democracy needs us to understand that injustice for one of us is potentially injustice to all of us, and embrace the belief that together, in generosity and caring compassion, we can make a better, fairer and more peaceful world.

If we can reconstruct the way in which we educate our children, the way they are either taught to continue the cycle of division and war that plagues the world or, conversely, to go beyond past hatreds and habits of retribution, find our inspiration and leadership among those who have not yet been taught to hate, to fear and renew the pain of the past. In the next generation we can find bridges to heal the mistakes we’ve made.

We need to have the courage to engage all of America in a national dialogue regarding wars that we entered based on lies or (at best) terrible errors of information or judgment, mistakes that have been passed over in terms of our need to accept responsibility for the destructive things we have done to our countrymen and women and to the people of other lands. We need to have a national dialogue to heal ourselves, as a nation, so that we can make amends and forgive ourselves and ask forgiveness of those we have injured. I’m speaking about, for example, those tortured in Guantanamo (in contravention of the Nuremberg Convention that outlawed torture in a treaty the United States signed). We need to become whole in our hearts about, and face the reality of, what we have done to those who, to this day, cannot go back to the unreconstructed 7th and 9th Wards in New Orleans, to those who lost family members in these wards after Katrina because rescue efforts ignored them, they who were people of color and less affluent than those who were attended to, until it was too late.

In short, we need our next generation to be unafraid to enter into the process of healing and that implies taking responsibility for the hurtful, terrible things we, as a nation, have done. We are a great nation, but one that refuses to look at our mistakes and the tragic results of these mistakes. If we don’t educate our children, in their homes as well as in their schools, to be humble, humane and honest with themselves, we will walk around with a great burden of guilt for goodness knows how long, like a hit-and-run driver that has escaped the scene of the accident but whose heart is deeply burdened by the pain and injury, sometimes death, that he has caused. In effect, we need to “turn ourselves in” to one another, stop hiding our guilt and our past transgressions, and trust that in doing so we might re-ignite the goodness, the decency, the civility, the respect, the reputation and the idealism of our nation.

I believe that over the long run we will have to do this or fall into serious decline as a nation whose heart has been irreparably bruised. The same issues of honesty vs. irresponsibility apply to a person, as in the case of Bernie Maedoff, who had to live with a huge guilt of injury, because of his actions, being inflicted on a daily basis upon so many people whose lives he ruined. If we do not open our hearts and stop labeling the recognition of our country’s faults and failures, mistakes and crimes against humanity, as unpatriotic opinions and actions – because we’re criticizing our nation – then we, each of us, bears some responsibility for the socio-pathological state we are sustaining, and for keeping us and our children in this state of being, perhaps too long to reclaim the heart and spirit of what has made, and can continue to make, America great.

For information about the Kerrville Folk Festival, please visit their website. For more with Peter Yarrow, please continue on to part two of our interview.

Melissa A. Bartell likes strong coffee, red wine, and dark chocolate. She earns her living writing web-copy for an Internet marketing firm & dabbles in fiction on the side. She lives near Dallas, TX with her husband, two dogs, and more computers than anyone really needs. She is the Managing Editor here at All Things Girl. Find out more about her on our About Page, check out her blog at MissMeliss.com, or follow her on Twitter: @Melysse

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